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Interview with Colonel Dennis Phillips
from JAC Issue Twelve
JAC: Please tell us a little about your
conversion.
DP: I think I qualify for the Guinness Book of World Records
for the number of times
I went to the mercy seat. The first time, I was only 8, maybe
9 and it was at the Mel
Trotter Mission in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I didn't know for
sure what I was doing
except I got to go to camp the next week. When I was 11 or 12
and attending the
Burton Heights Corps (Grand Rapids, Michigan), Lieutenant
Doris Atwood conducted
an evangelistic campaign, and I had never heard such
preaching. During that week,
I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ, and after about another
1000 visits to the
penitent form, I began to grasp the wonder of His grace and
began to experience the
security God promises to those who believe.
JAC: Please tell us a little about your sanctification.
DP: It is ironic that I preached holiness years before I
actually experienced it. I knew
what our Doctrine Book said, and I read most of Brengle's
great titles on Holiness,
but I just could not seem to get my own arms around the
experience. Finally, at age
37 and serving as corps officer in Kansas City, Missouri "the
light went on." It did not
occur in a public meeting; rather it was in the quietness of
my own humble study at
the corps when the plain yet profound truth became clear to me
and "His spirit bore
witness with my spirit" that we were one. I remembered the
simple question on a
corps cadet lesson from many years earlier: "What is
sanctification?" And the
answer, equally simple, "Separation from the world and
dedication to God." That was
it. And my soul was at rest.
JAC: Your current 'reinforcement' appointment is your first
such assignment and yet
was foreshadowed by God long ago. Please explain.
DP: I'm quite sure my answer will be too long to be included,
yet I'm not sure how to
shorten it. Let me take you to the morning of September 24,
1997 when General
Rader called me at our quarters in California to appoint us to
the Caribbean. The
conversation really took my breath away. Once I hung up the
phone, Noella and I
just looked at each other, and I blurted out, "Honey, NOTHING
in my prayer life or
devotions has prepared me for this." I said that in the
context that in every other
move, God had somehow paved the way. No previous move was such
a surprise.
But as soon as I spoke those words, an experience of 45 years
earlier came back to
me with the impact of a tumultuous clap of thunder. I was then
14 years old
attending the Territorial Leadership Institute of the USA
Central Territory, and one of
the evening programs was conducted by a visiting missionary
(and I am so sorry I
don't remember who it was). During that program, God spoke to
my heart about
serving on the mission field. Come on, I was only 14, and I
thought I had done well
to have already committed myself to officership. I was not
ready to sail off to some
unknown land. My answer was "No....not me, not here and not
now." But God's
spirit worked overtime on my young soul, and by the week's
end, I was at the mercy
seat again, this time saying, "Okay, it IS me, and it IS here
and it IS now." The next
morning, it was as if I had never been called. I left that
camp feeling as though I had
had an "Abraham/Isaac" experience. God was just testing my
willingness. Well, it
happened all over again when I was a cadet. "No problem",
thought I. “I'll just say
yes, and the next morning, after having passed another test,
everything will be back
to normal.” Uh uh. It wasn't to happen that way this time. I
was in spiritual agony for
weeks. Noella and I were engaged (secretly, as it had to be in
those days), and I
remember sharing the agony of my soul with her in my letters.
She wrote back
claiming no such calling herself, but saying if it was God's
will for me, she was willing
to go. After the worst spiritual turmoil of my life, I
genuinely gave in to the demands
of God’s spirit, and He responded with this message to my
heart: "Not now, Denny,
but some day." All through my officership, I have wondered
when such an
opportunity would occur, but I have to admit that by age 59, I
didn't think of it as much
as I did in my earlier officer-years. And so it was, that
within seconds of claiming "no
advance notice", God reminded me that on this appointment, He
had in fact given me
45 years to get ready. Ya gotta love Him!
JAC: You have served in three territories. How has this
affected your officership?
DP: Let there be no doubt that every territory is different.
Two of those territories
were in the U.S.A., but they might as well be on different
planets. I will always be
grateful for "growing up" in the conservative USA Central
Territory where my
officership received a solid base and an anchor stronger than
Gibraltar. But going to
the USA Western Territory, I found my vision being challenged
and expanded. I liked
their "derring-do" pioneer spirit that was not afraid to
"color outside the lines" ... at
least a little. There is no doubt I am a better person and a
better officer for having
served in the West. These past three years in the Caribbean
have been a spiritual
adventure beyond description as we have traveled the 15
countries of the Caribbean
tropics. In the USA, we knew what it was to abound. In the
Caribbean, we have
learned what it is to be without resources, and we were amazed
from the very
beginning as we observed how much our Caribbean people could
do with so little,
and, frankly, it made us a little ashamed how little we, in
North America, do with so
much. I'm also disappointed in myself in my previous roles as
Divisional Commander
and Chief Secretary for sometimes being stingy and too
conservative when it came
to helping our poorer neighbors around the world. In North
America, we think we are
doing a lot, and in a sense we are, but we must do more, for
some day we will each
be held accountable for our management of the resources God
makes available to
us.
JAC: How has your extensive youth work experience affected
your outlook on the
future of The Salvation Army?
DP: Much of the time I feel like I'm still a T.Y.S. It was one
of my favorite
appointments, and I will always have a special affection for
the youth of the Army.
The youth of today's Army have a profound sense of mission and
purpose. They are
quite turned off by any indication of the Army squandering or
mismanaging its
resources. Nor are they impressed with our tendency to be
overly ‘spendorous’ at
times of welcomes and farewells. Too much attention on the
individual, not enough
attention to our mission. The youth and young adults of today
can lead us forward to
more faithfully fulfilling our mission (Will any of us ever
forget General Gowans’s
message utilizing the three legged stool? ... "saving souls,
making saints, serving
suffering humanity") if we will listen to them and heed their
leadership.
JAC: What are the greatest challenges of your current
appointment?
DP: Having served in two USA territories where there were
always resources
available, it was a dramatic change of culture for us to have
to find solutions to
problems without any reserves or funds to do so. Funding this
territory where we
have 13 different currencies, some of them fluctuating greatly
has been a significant
challenge.
JAC: What books have had the greatest impact on you over the
years? Why?
DP: Richard Foster's “Celebration of Discipline” was a major
life-changer for me
because he seemed to touch every area of my life that needed
changing. Later,
Foster's “Freedom of Simplicity” really challenged my tendency
toward being
materialistic and to put the whole matter of possessions in a
spiritual and holy
context. Most recently, I have read Phil Yancey's “What's So
Amazing About Grace”,
and no book other than the Bible has so revolutionized my life
and challenged my
spiritual priorities. I am now in the process of reading it
again, and I highly
recommend it to every person who is prepared to make some
"quantum-leap"
changes in their spiritual lives. The whole thing about
forgiveness is so needed in
the Christian fellowship today. Read it - everyone who is
reading this - read “What's
So Amazing About Grace.”
JAC: Who are your heroes? Why?
DP: I have too many heroes to mention here. Bramwell Tripp
(Commissioner,
recently PTG) would be one. He exemplified the life of
holiness better than anyone
I've ever met, and he inspired others to pursue the sanctified
life. Andrew Miller
(Retired Commissioner) is an important hero in my life because
he taught me the
importance of passion in preaching, leading, and relating.
Even though Bill Himes is
younger than me, he is still one of my heroes because, despite
having every reason
for being uppity and stuffy, he is the most down-to-earth and
VERY REAL person I
know, and I am always a better person when in his presence. I
want to include
George Nelting (Retired Commissioner) in this Heroes Hall of
Fame, for in him I saw
the model of leadership that encourages others, something I
have tried to emulate,
yet I am far from achieving his level of success in this
regard.
JAC: What is the most significant part of your ministry today?
DP: This is a most interesting question because in addition to
being the Territorial
Commander, I have taken on a personal ministry with the
homeless children of
Kingston. There are hundreds of little children on the
streets, mostly boys, some as
young as 7 and 8. Most of them are "throw-aways"; others are
orphans. It didn't take
them long to learn they had a friend in the "white man" at The
Salvation Army, and
they appear daily at my window. Thanks to a great DJ in
Chicago (John Williams of
WGN - a 50,000 watt am station), the story of our efforts to
help these boys has been
broadcast across several states, and we have received nearly
US$25,000 to take
care of these kids. As a result, we now have a small shelter
with 10 beds, all full.
I've also placed 6 children at "The Nest" (one of three SA
orphanages here in
Jamaica). It has been the biggest blessing of my three years
in Jamaica to see these
once-homeless boys become respectable, attending church,
looking good, smelling
good, acting good, carrying their Bibles, kneeling at the
mercy seat and some of
them saying to me, "Colonel, do you think I could be a
Salvation Army Captain and
help other street kids in Kingston?"
JAC: What are your dreams for The Salvation Army?
DP: My dream for The Salvation Army is that we will fully
embrace our mission.
Again, I refer to the General's message in Atlanta using the
3-legged stool. Our
mission is to "save sinners, grow saints and serve suffering
humanity." He made the
important point that all three legs of the stool had to be
equal in order for the stool to
stand. There is no doubt we do a great job with the first leg,
saving sinners. Nearly
every survey and study reveals our weakness in "growing
saints" or making disciples.
But most of all, I am concerned as I see us abandoning our
mission to the poor.
Yes, The Salvation Army is still America's Favourite Charity
(so acclaimed for 8 years
by The Chronicle of Philanthropy), but it seems more and more
we are segregating
our social services from our corps. The Army was raised up to
fulfill the mandate of
the Old and New Testaments (to care for the poor, something
the Church had
ignored for centuries), and whenever and wherever we are
faithful to that mandate,
we grow. Just look at how God has blessed our sacrament of
service to those who
cannot provide for themselves and those who cannot care for
themselves (so clearly
identified by God Himself as "the widows, the orphans, the
fatherless, the sojourners"
(homeless)). It greatly disturbs my spirit when I see the
pendulum swinging so far the
other way from that time when William Booth, young and naive
took his converts to
the church in London only to be met with disdain and rebuff.
And today, in many
Salvation Army corps, that same scene is repeated. I have seen
many officers
recover from boredom and purposelessness as they rediscover
the essence of their
calling while serving on a soup line in the inner-city or
helping families in time of
disaster. As Salvation Army soldiers, we should read Matthew
25:31-46 every day,
take it literally and then seek ways to fulfill our mission to
the poor on this earth.
JAC: What are your impressions of The Salvation Army, based on
your experiences
at the most recent High Council?
DP: The High Council is an awesome experience, and it leaves
one with a strong
sense that the Army is in good hands. Our leaders from around
the world are wise,
well experienced and consecrated. Many have served in
difficult circumstances their
entire lives, and they bring a "St. Francis of Assisi" spirit
to the Council Chamber. I
was particularly impressed with their manner of exchanging
different ideas, some of
which clashed with the ideas of others, and yet doing so in an
environment of
holiness and respect.
JAC: What is God teaching you these days?
DP: These days, God is teaching me some hard lessons regarding
forgiveness.
Forgiveness is something we all want to receive, yet we find
it hard to give. Again,
Phil Yancey's book, “What's So Amazing About Grace” has been
God's way of
opening my heart and mind to this needed discipline in my
life.
JAC: You are one of the Army's great preachers. What are your
keys for faithful,
bold, and compelling preaching?
DP: Steve, you have to get out more often. The Army's list of
great preachers
stretches very long before any hint of my name appears. Yet, I
thank you for a
beautiful compliment. I return to my Heroes Hall of Fame and
recall the impact of
Commissioner Andy Miller on my life. He had such respect for
the drama of God's
Word, and his passionate heart produced stirring images of the
wonder and glory of
God. When he preached, he expected something to happen - first
of all in his own
heart, and secondly in the hearts of his audience. I'll never
understand how some
can take the most exciting Story ever written and somehow make
it boring (although,
having said that, I have to admit, I've done it myself at
times. In fact, I recall one
particular sermon I was preaching that was so boring even I
couldn't wait until it was
over.) No, the Word of God is drama, it is excitement, it
provides the answers we
need to the questions hovering over us and our neighbors every
day. I love to
preach, and like my hero, Andy, I pray and expect (with a holy
expectancy) that His
Word will not return unto Him void.
JAC: Can you tell us of any memorable preaching you have
heard, and what made it
outstanding?
DP: I've already mentioned Commissioner Miller. I'd travel
many miles to hear Tony
Campolo preach. He's another one who pours his heart into his
preaching, and I like
the fact that he peppers his sermons with illustrations of
ministering to the poor. You
cannot make a list of great preachers without including our
present General. He was
magnificent in his preaching in Atlanta. He has a gift of
saying a volume of thought
with an economy of words (definitely not one of my gifts as
seen by these answers).
JAC: What is your most memorable spiritual experience?
DP: It was on the shore of the Sea of Galilee in 1990 when
Noella and I visited the
Holy Land. There was a mist on the sea, and local fisherman
wearing robes and
turbans were casting their nets in hopes of a good morning
catch. We were told this
was most likely the very spot where Jesus built a little fire
and prepared some fish
and bread for his naughty disciples (they were out fishing all
night - naked). Once
ashore with their 153 fish ("holy mackerel"), Jesus popped the
question three times,
"Peter do you love me". Steve, as I sat on the concrete bench
that morning, I sensed
the presence of the Lord so strongly I actually expected to
see the prints of his
sandals upon the wet morning grass and to hear His voice,
"Denny, do you love me".
I WANTED to hear Him ... I wanted to see Him, for I would have
given Him an
elongated bear hug that would have left no doubt in His mind
that with every ounce of
energy in my being, I loved Him more than all. There would
have been no, "You
know I love you, Lord" (the worst thing one can say when
someone asks, "Do you
love me?") In that moment, my throat was so tight I couldn't
speak the rest of the
morning. I knew then, "If ever I loved Thee, I know it is
now."
JAC: Please comment on the state of aggressive Christianity in
the 21st century.
How relevant is primitive salvationism?
DP: I think I've already answered this. Primitive salvationism
is what can move our
Army forward in this new millennium. The word "primitive" may
cause some to think
we are regressing to "the good old days", but my spin is that
it restores the original
mission while we embrace new methods and opportunities to
accomplish that
mission. (Remember the 3-legged stool).
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