JAC Online

Interview: Colonel Dennis Phillips

Original publication - JAC #12 – April – May 2001

Colonel Dennis Phillips is the Territorial Commander in the Caribbean. He has been living outside the box for years now. For details, read the following interview.

JAC: Please tell us a little about your conversion.

DP: I think I qualify for the Guinness Book of World Records for the number of times I went to the mercy seat. The first time, I was only 8, maybe 9 and it was at the Mel Trotter Mission in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I didn't know for sure what I was doing except I got to go to camp the next week. When I was 11 or 12 and attending the Burton Heights Corps (Grand Rapids, Michigan), Lieutenant Doris Atwood conducted an evangelistic campaign, and I had never heard such preaching. During that week, I surrendered my life to Jesus Christ, and after about another 1000 visits to the penitent form, I began to grasp the wonder of His grace and began to experience the security God promises to those who believe.

JAC: Please tell us a little about your sanctification.

DP: It is ironic that I preached holiness years before I actually experienced it. I knew what our Doctrine Book said, and I read most of Brengle's great titles on Holiness, but I just could not seem to get my own arms around the experience. Finally, at age 37 and serving as corps officer in Kansas City, Missouri "the light went on." It did not occur in a public meeting; rather it was in the quietness of my own humble study at the corps when the plain yet profound truth became clear to me and "His spirit bore witness with my spirit" that we were one. I remembered the simple question on a corps cadet lesson from many years earlier: "What is sanctification?" And the answer, equally simple, "Separation from the world and dedication to God." That was it. And my soul was at rest.

JAC: Your current 'reinforcement' appointment is your first such assignment and yet was foreshadowed by God long ago. Please explain.

DP: I'm quite sure my answer will be too long to be included, yet I'm not sure how to shorten it. Let me take you to the morning of September 24, 1997 when General Rader called me at our quarters in California to appoint us to the Caribbean. The conversation really took my breath away. Once I hung up the phone, Noella and I just looked at each other, and I blurted out, "Honey, NOTHING in my prayer life or devotions has prepared me for this." I said that in the context that in every other move, God had somehow paved the way. No previous move was such a surprise. But as soon as I spoke those words, an experience of 45 years earlier came back to me with the impact of a tumultuous clap of thunder. I was then 14 years old attending the Territorial Leadership Institute of the USA Central Territory, and one of the evening programs was conducted by a visiting missionary (and I am so sorry I don't remember who it was). During that program, God spoke to my heart about serving on the mission field. Come on, I was only 14, and I thought I had done well to have already committed myself to officership. I was not ready to sail off to some unknown land. My answer was "No....not me, not here and not now." But God's spirit worked overtime on my young soul, and by the week's end, I was at the mercy seat again, this time saying, "Okay, it IS me, and it IS here and it IS now." The next morning, it was as if I had never been called. I left that camp feeling as though I had had an "Abraham/Isaac" experience. God was just testing my willingness. Well, it happened all over again when I was a cadet. "No problem", thought I. “I'll just say yes, and the next morning, after having passed another test, everything will be back to normal.” Uh uh. It wasn't to happen that way this time. I was in spiritual agony for weeks. Noella and I were engaged (secretly, as it had to be in those days), and I remember sharing the agony of my soul with her in my letters. She wrote back claiming no such calling herself, but saying if it was God's will for me, she was willing to go. After the worst spiritual turmoil of my life, I genuinely gave in to the demands of God’s spirit, and He responded with this message to my heart: "Not now, Denny, but some day." All through my officership, I have wondered when such an opportunity would occur, but I have to admit that by age 59, I didn't think of it as much as I did in my earlier officer-years. And so it was, that within seconds of claiming "no advance notice", God reminded me that on this appointment, He had in fact given me 45 years to get ready. Ya gotta love Him!

JAC: You have served in three territories. How has this affected your officership?

DP: Let there be no doubt that every territory is different. Two of those territories were in the U.S.A., but they might as well be on different planets. I will always be grateful for "growing up" in the conservative USA Central Territory where my officership received a solid base and an anchor stronger than Gibraltar. But going to the USA Western Territory, I found my vision being challenged and expanded. I liked their "derring-do" pioneer spirit that was not afraid to "color outside the lines" ... at least a little. There is no doubt I am a better person and a better officer for having served in the West. These past three years in the Caribbean have been a spiritual adventure beyond description as we have traveled the 15 countries of the Caribbean tropics. In the USA, we knew what it was to abound. In the Caribbean, we have learned what it is to be without resources, and we were amazed from the very beginning as we observed how much our Caribbean people could do with so little, and, frankly, it made us a little ashamed how little we, in North America, do with so much. I'm also disappointed in myself in my previous roles as Divisional Commander and Chief Secretary for sometimes being stingy and too conservative when it came to helping our poorer neighbors around the world. In North America, we think we are doing a lot, and in a sense we are, but we must do more, for some day we will each be held accountable for our management of the resources God makes available to us.

JAC: How has your extensive youth work experience affected your outlook on the future of The Salvation Army?

DP: Much of the time I feel like I'm still a T.Y.S. It was one of my favorite appointments, and I will always have a special affection for the youth of the Army. The youth of today's Army have a profound sense of mission and purpose. They are quite turned off by any indication of the Army squandering or mismanaging its resources. Nor are they impressed with our tendency to be overly ‘spendorous’ at times of welcomes and farewells. Too much attention on the individual, not enough attention to our mission. The youth and young adults of today can lead us forward to more faithfully fulfilling our mission (Will any of us ever forget General Gowans’s message utilizing the three legged stool? ... "saving souls, making saints, serving suffering humanity") if we will listen to them and heed their leadership.

JAC: What are the greatest challenges of your current appointment?

DP: Having served in two USA territories where there were always resources available, it was a dramatic change of culture for us to have to find solutions to problems without any reserves or funds to do so. Funding this territory where we have 13 different currencies, some of them fluctuating greatly has been a significant challenge.

JAC: What books have had the greatest impact on you over the years? Why?

DP: Richard Foster's “Celebration of Discipline” was a major life-changer for me because he seemed to touch every area of my life that needed changing. Later, Foster's “Freedom of Simplicity” really challenged my tendency toward being materialistic and to put the whole matter of possessions in a spiritual and holy context. Most recently, I have read Phil Yancey's “What's So Amazing About Grace”, and no book other than the Bible has so revolutionized my life and challenged my spiritual priorities. I am now in the process of reading it again, and I highly recommend it to every person who is prepared to make some "quantum-leap" changes in their spiritual lives. The whole thing about forgiveness is so needed in the Christian fellowship today. Read it - everyone who is reading this - read “What's So Amazing About Grace.”

JAC: Who are your heroes? Why?

DP: I have too many heroes to mention here. Bramwell Tripp (Commissioner, recently PTG) would be one. He exemplified the life of holiness better than anyone I've ever met, and he inspired others to pursue the sanctified life. Andrew Miller (Retired Commissioner) is an important hero in my life because he taught me the importance of passion in preaching, leading, and relating. Even though Bill Himes is younger than me, he is still one of my heroes because, despite having every reason for being uppity and stuffy, he is the most down-to-earth and VERY REAL person I know, and I am always a better person when in his presence. I want to include George Nelting (Retired Commissioner) in this Heroes Hall of Fame, for in him I saw the model of leadership that encourages others, something I have tried to emulate, yet I am far from achieving his level of success in this regard.

JAC: What is the most significant part of your ministry today?

DP: This is a most interesting question because in addition to being the Territorial Commander, I have taken on a personal ministry with the homeless children of Kingston. There are hundreds of little children on the streets, mostly boys, some as young as 7 and 8. Most of them are "throw-aways"; others are orphans. It didn't take them long to learn they had a friend in the "white man" at The Salvation Army, and they appear daily at my window. Thanks to a great DJ in Chicago (John Williams of WGN - a 50,000 watt am station), the story of our efforts to help these boys has been broadcast across several states, and we have received nearly US$25,000 to take care of these kids. As a result, we now have a small shelter with 10 beds, all full. I've also placed 6 children at "The Nest" (one of three SA orphanages here in Jamaica). It has been the biggest blessing of my three years in Jamaica to see these once-homeless boys become respectable, attending church, looking good, smelling good, acting good, carrying their Bibles, kneeling at the mercy seat and some of them saying to me, "Colonel, do you think I could be a Salvation Army Captain and help other street kids in Kingston?"

JAC: What are your dreams for The Salvation Army?

DP: My dream for The Salvation Army is that we will fully embrace our mission. Again, I refer to the General's message in Atlanta using the 3-legged stool. Our mission is to "save sinners, grow saints and serve suffering humanity." He made the important point that all three legs of the stool had to be equal in order for the stool to stand. There is no doubt we do a great job with the first leg, saving sinners. Nearly every survey and study reveals our weakness in "growing saints" or making disciples. But most of all, I am concerned as I see us abandoning our mission to the poor. Yes, The Salvation Army is still America's Favourite Charity (so acclaimed for 8 years by The Chronicle of Philanthropy), but it seems more and more we are segregating our social services from our corps. The Army was raised up to fulfill the mandate of the Old and New Testaments (to care for the poor, something the Church had ignored for centuries), and whenever and wherever we are faithful to that mandate, we grow. Just look at how God has blessed our sacrament of service to those who cannot provide for themselves and those who cannot care for themselves (so clearly identified by God Himself as "the widows, the orphans, the fatherless, the sojourners" (homeless)). It greatly disturbs my spirit when I see the pendulum swinging so far the other way from that time when William Booth, young and naive took his converts to the church in London only to be met with disdain and rebuff. And today, in many Salvation Army corps, that same scene is repeated. I have seen many officers recover from boredom and purposelessness as they rediscover the essence of their calling while serving on a soup line in the inner-city or helping families in time of disaster. As Salvation Army soldiers, we should read Matthew 25:31-46 every day, take it literally and then seek ways to fulfill our mission to the poor on this earth.

JAC: What are your impressions of The Salvation Army, based on your experiences at the most recent High Council?

DP: The High Council is an awesome experience, and it leaves one with a strong sense that the Army is in good hands. Our leaders from around the world are wise, well experienced and consecrated. Many have served in difficult circumstances their entire lives, and they bring a "St. Francis of Assisi" spirit to the Council Chamber. I was particularly impressed with their manner of exchanging different ideas, some of which clashed with the ideas of others, and yet doing so in an environment of holiness and respect.

JAC: What is God teaching you these days?

DP: These days, God is teaching me some hard lessons regarding forgiveness. Forgiveness is something we all want to receive, yet we find it hard to give. Again, Phil Yancey's book, “What's So Amazing About Grace” has been God's way of opening my heart and mind to this needed discipline in my life.

JAC: You are one of the Army's great preachers. What are your keys for faithful, bold, and compelling preaching?

DP: Steve, you have to get out more often. The Army's list of great preachers stretches very long before any hint of my name appears. Yet, I thank you for a beautiful compliment. I return to my Heroes Hall of Fame and recall the impact of Commissioner Andy Miller on my life. He had such respect for the drama of God's Word, and his passionate heart produced stirring images of the wonder and glory of God. When he preached, he expected something to happen - first of all in his own heart, and secondly in the hearts of his audience. I'll never understand how some can take the most exciting Story ever written and somehow make it boring (although, having said that, I have to admit, I've done it myself at times. In fact, I recall one particular sermon I was preaching that was so boring even I couldn't wait until it was over.) No, the Word of God is drama, it is excitement, it provides the answers we need to the questions hovering over us and our neighbors every day. I love to preach, and like my hero, Andy, I pray and expect (with a holy expectancy) that His Word will not return unto Him void.

JAC: Can you tell us of any memorable preaching you have heard, and what made it outstanding?

DP: I've already mentioned Commissioner Miller. I'd travel many miles to hear Tony Campolo preach. He's another one who pours his heart into his preaching, and I like the fact that he peppers his sermons with illustrations of ministering to the poor. You cannot make a list of great preachers without including our present General. He was magnificent in his preaching in Atlanta. He has a gift of saying a volume of thought with an economy of words (definitely not one of my gifts as seen by these answers).

JAC: What is your most memorable spiritual experience?

DP: It was on the shore of the Sea of Galilee in 1990 when Noella and I visited the Holy Land. There was a mist on the sea, and local fisherman wearing robes and turbans were casting their nets in hopes of a good morning catch. We were told this was most likely the very spot where Jesus built a little fire and prepared some fish and bread for his naughty disciples (they were out fishing all night - naked). Once ashore with their 153 fish ("holy mackerel"), Jesus popped the question three times, "Peter do you love me". Steve, as I sat on the concrete bench that morning, I sensed the presence of the Lord so strongly I actually expected to see the prints of his sandals upon the wet morning grass and to hear His voice, "Denny, do you love me". I WANTED to hear Him ... I wanted to see Him, for I would have given Him an elongated bear hug that would have left no doubt in His mind that with every ounce of energy in my being, I loved Him more than all. There would have been no, "You know I love you, Lord" (the worst thing one can say when someone asks, "Do you love me?") In that moment, my throat was so tight I couldn't speak the rest of the morning. I knew then, "If ever I loved Thee, I know it is now."

JAC: Please comment on the state of aggressive Christianity in the 21st century. How relevant is primitive salvationism?

DP: I think I've already answered this. Primitive salvationism is what can move our Army forward in this new millennium. The word "primitive" may cause some to think we are regressing to "the good old days", but my spin is that it restores the original mission while we embrace new methods and opportunities to accomplish that mission. (Remember the 3-legged stool).