JAC Online

Interview with (then) Commissioner Shaw Clifton
from JAC Issue Nine

JAC: Please tell us a little about your conversion.

SC: At the risk of being misunderstood, I nevertheless need to say that I
have always been saved, in this sense: there has never been a time in my
life when I did not know about Jesus and that He had died to be my Saviour
from sin, and there has never been a time in my life when I did not believe
this and accept it fully for myself with much gladness. This I owe to my
parents who were faithful in keeping the promises they made to raise me in
the Christian faith when I was dedicated under the Army flag in Belfast
Citadel hall in Northern Ireland. Growing up through childhood and my teen
years there were many times when all this came with a new freshness to me
and reconfirmed the simple and innocent, saving faith of a small child.

JAC: You have served in several parts of the world. Please comment on how
this has impacted your Salvationism.

SC: We are serving on our fourth continent. We have also been privileged
to see the Army at work in many countries. Everywhere the Army is the same,
yet distinctive. All one, but different. This is a miracle of God, who
alone could bind together an Army of such massive proportions from so many
diverging cultures and peoples. Our internationalism is a very precious
gift, one that is perhaps not sufficiently prized among us. The recent
Congress in Atlanta brought it all before our very eyes in a gloriously
God-honouring way. It is important that we never stand in the way of the
Army developing at local levels in ways that truly reflect and speak to the
local culture.

JAC: You have had a unique role in Salvation Army activity over the last
generation. In legal capacities you have impacted High Councils and SA
nationals constitutions and protests and defence of historic rights. You
were on the scene for the tragic martyrdoms in Africa. You have written
pages that have challenged Salvationists on such issues as marriage,
ethics, holiness, and Salvationism. Where do we stand in light of General
Booth's prophesy that, "If The Salvation Army will be true to God, (we will
reach the world) in the next fifty years" (THE GENERAL'S LETTERS, 1885)?

SC: When we first set out on life's great adventure with God, and when we
first say "Yes" to Him when He calls us to a distinctive life of ministry,
we can have absolutely no idea of all that will follow. He opens doors and
presents challenges that without His grace would be utterly daunting. I
cannot pretend to know what Booth had in mind when he wrote these words.
However, I do know that his emphasis on being "true to God" was the only
one that mattered. It still matters. For me, the Army is "true to God" when
it remembers and prioritises the following non-negotiables:

1. The sinfulness of sin. By this I mean that we must never be seduced by
arguments and attitudes that would cause us to join those who pretend that
sin is OK. We need to hold to the truths of Scripture about those things
that grieve God and are entirely incompatible with His righteousness or
with a claim to love and serve Him. Hell will laugh loudly on the day the
Army fails to do this. Our compromise will be Satan's victory. If we lose
our sense of the awfulness and evil of sin and its horrendous hold on human
hearts, or if we ever cease to grieve over the damage and hurt it causes to
human lives, we shall then have lost our sense of urgency about the need of
a Saviour. Linked to this is the fading belief among us as to the reality
of Hell or Satan and the forces of evil and darkness. We need to know our
enemy, but too many of us no longer think there is an enemy. This makes us
dangerously vulnerable to those "fiery darts" of which the Apostle speaks
in Ephesians 6:16.

2. The power of the forgiveness of God shown in Jesus Christ our Lord. We
are called as an Army to preach the matchless love of God for a sinful
human race, a love revealed in the Cross of Calvary. It is our mission to
proclaim the blood of Jesus as the only remedy for sin. This message needs
to permeate our teaching, preaching and writing. Each Salvationist is
called to lead a life that is an eloquent witness to the love of God and
the power of the Cross.

3. The life of holiness. We must recapture our nerve about the
practicality of living a sanctified life. The Lord is willing to
demonstrate through His Army the boundlessness of the salvation to be found
in Christ, to show that He forgives past sin AND wants to keep us clean and
pure after we are saved. I am praying that God will raise up among us women
and men who will be bold about all this, who will speak of it, write about
it, and articulate again for the early 21st century the timeless truths of
Scripture. I believe that purity of heart and life is a daily possibility
through grace imparted directly from God to the believer. I am not among
those officers or soldiers who think it fashionable to denigrate the
writings of Samuel Logan Brengle. I do not agree with those who say he got
it wrong and did not understand the Scriptures. He still challenges us
across the years and spurs us on to higher and better. (I wish dearly that
his books were again available from the trade department in the UK. When I
want one I have to contact the USA, Canada or Australia. It seems Brengle
is read and appreciated more these days outside the Army than in it.
Something is wrong.)

4. A refusal to curry the favour of men. Too often we have yielded to the
temptation to trim our sails to the winds of human approval. That is no way
for an Army of God to go on. We need to plead on our knees for regular
cleansing from the care of what men think or say. We shall have friends
aplenty by being "true to God". Our best friends will be those who know all
about us, warts and all, but who love and admire us for our willingness to
be absolutely ourselves under God and respect us for our determination
never to waver from His will or from the identity He has given us a a
distinctive church and community of compassionate carers for the outcast
and lost.

5. Practical, compassionate service to the needy. God has endowed us with
a marked capacity to serve the under-privileged. We share his bias to the
poor. We walk with the outcast. We identify with the rejected. We serve
with the basin and towel. We kneel before the lowest of the low and the
poorest of the poor. We are to be the voice of the voiceless. All this is
hard and costly, but there is grace for it. Every Army social worker needs
to be saved, to be a partner in mission, consciously receiving and, in
turn, channelling that divine grace to needy souls.

6. Advocacy in the public arena for social action. We are called to be
actively, intelligently involved and openly concerned on issues of social
justice and human rights. Some parts of the Army world have done better at
this than others. We take no political side, save that of the oppressed or
downtrodden. We must forever be on our guard about the implications of
taking money from secular sources. Sometimes the strings attached represent
too high a price. We must never sell our birthright. All the world must
know that the Army's silence is something that money cannot buy.

7. Our belief in the directness and immediacy of divine grace to the human
heart. This brings me to the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers
and also to our historic, divinely inspired stance concerning the
sacramental life. We are called to bear witness to the daily, hourly
reality of God's grace in our lives without the help of the (by now myriad)
outward forms of sacramental ceremony found useful by many others. This is
a hard, even lonely, calling. So was our Lord's.

8. Claiming new ground for Christ. I am with Booth in his vision to take
the gospel to all the world. Opportunities to open the work in new lands
will still present themselves. The Spirit must guide us. There are voices
calling for a moratorium on new national openings because of the financial
costs involved. I understand clearly the need to count the fiscal cost
before venturing further across yet another national boundary, but the cost
of ignoring the prompting of the Holy Spirit is higher still. Where He
leads with a clear vision and call, like Booth I would follow, trusting God
implicitly for the resources we need. He has never let us down and is not
about to start doing so. Here in Pakistan we have ventured forward time and
again into bold and unlikely ventures, taking new ground for Christ. The
money has always come to hand. Our faith has been strengthened and is
growing ever bolder.

JAC: You served in Africa during some challenging times (recounted most
recently in MOBILIZED FOR GOD). What is the secret to the fast Salvation
Army growth in parts of Africa?

SC: Our four years in Africa (1975-79) hardly make me an expert! But it is
notable that in East Africa and in Zimbabwe we have the two largest
territories in the world when it comes to the number of soldiers. Then we
look to India and to Pakistan also to see high numbers. Only 25% of our
soldier strength is to be found outside Africa and South Asia. Many
cultural factors are at work in these places. We do not encounter western
scepticism about God or about organised religion. We are free from the
inordinate individualism of the west with its emphasis on pleasing one's
self and the need for self-sufficiency. In Africa and Asia we find a
recognition that we are basically social animals with a need for one
another. I think this willingness to see our personal need is helpful to
evangelism. Another factor is the faithfulness of the early pioneers who
are still openly remembered and spoken of in revered tones. Their lives
still inspire.
Next, I would mention the willingness of modern "missionaries" to work
themselves out of a job and hand over to indigenous staff. This way the
church, the Army, can more easily reflect the culture of the place where
it is found. Indigenisation and inculturation are the key ingredients.

JAC: You bring a unique combination of educational accomplishment to the
warfare. There are various schools of thought as to the proper place of
formal education in the Army. What is the proper role?

SC: Get all the formal education you can get, then hand it all back to God
for Him to use at will, never thinking for a moment that you did it all in
your own strength. However, education is no substitute for godliness. Also,
we need sanctified "thinkers" and this is not quite the same as "educated
folk". I suppose in the end I would want to be an advocate for an
evangelicalism backed up by sound education and scholarship. But I would
never accept that lack of formal education is automatically a handicap to
ministry in the Army. There is a place for all of us, and we must humbly
learn from each other regardless of our backgrounds. We all need to remain
forever teachable.

JAC: Pakistan has experienced significant growth in the last couple of
years. How do you see the Army strategising towards reaching the other
predominantly Muslim nations of the world?

SC: Yes, God has given us growth in our soldiers' rolls of 30% in the last
three years. We have witnessed a net growth of over 10,000 senior soldiers
in that time. God is good. Pakistan is a Moslem state. We find it very hard
to reach Moslems with the gospel. Our converts come from the unchurched,
unsaved ethnic "Christians". Recent research shows that in Pakistan there
are perhaps at most only a dozen or so true cases of conversion from Islam
to Christ in any year (from a population of 140 million Moslems). The
impact of the gospel is seriously hampered by what are perceived by devout
Moslems as low moral standards in the west and these are assumed to be
"Christian" - immodesty of dress, excess of drugs and alcohol, marital
infidelity, family breakdown, pornography, abortion and so on. We see it as
our role to prove that the Army can, by God's grace, not only hold its own
in Pakistan but grow and flourish. We are the last frontier of Salvationism
between Europe and Asia. Indonesia, Nigeria and Russia/CIS also work in
Moslem settings. I am not aware of any thought-through strategy by the Army
to reach the world's Moslems. I think perhaps there is widespread ignorance
about Islam - its beliefs and its potential for influencing world and
national events. In Pakistan we have many Moslem friends and the Army is
free to worship and serve, despite the volatile nature of life here.

JAC: What books have had the greatest impact on you over the years? Why?

SC: Richard Collier's "The General Next to God" - for its inspirational
account of Booth; the 1945 Handbook of Doctrine - for its simplicity and
directness (each section seems to call for a verdict from the reader, not
least the section on our Tenth Doctrine); the Journals of Bramwell Booth -
for what they have taught me about spiritual leadership in the Army and
single-mindedness for the cause of Christ; anything from the pens of
Brengle or Ed Read, whose recent promotion to glory has taken from us an
irreplaceable man; the latest volume of Army history by Henry Gariepy,
"Mobilised for God" - for its fine research and willingness not to hide the
truth (we need, as an Army, to mature still further in giving the people
all the facts, uncomfortable or not, in works of this kind); my little book
of collected prayers - for its daily help to my soul (I thank God for the
written prayers of others that help me say to God the things I need to
say); "God in Pain - Teaching Sermons on Suffering" by Barbara Brown Taylor
- for its sensitivity to the human lot and for the courage and skill of its
author who stands out as a preacher of God's word.

JAC: Who are your heroes? Why?

SC St.Francis - because he was not in love with this world or its
honours; Martin Luther - because he knew where he stood and could not be
intimidated by powerful persons, religious or secular; John Wesley - for
showing me what Christ can do for me in the blessing of a clean heart;
William Booth - for role-modelling what it means to let God have all there
is of me; Samuel Logan Brengle - for not letting his wealth or legal
education stop him from preaching and writing as a prophet of holiness; my
Dad, Major Albert Clifton (R) - for being the nicest, most humble man I
have ever known and for showing me how to both love the Army and also stand
back from it from time to time.

JAC: General Catherine Booth went on record, stating, "The great
fundamental principle of The Salvation Army is? the law of adaptation."
This comment has been used by many salvos at many times toward diverse
ends. You are on record in various places, including WHO ARE THESE
SALVATIONISTS?, commenting on change in various areas of The Salvation Army.
What is the proper understanding of this fundamental principle for us
today, in light of tensions between priestly v. prophetic roles?

SC: "Adapt or die!" is still as true today for us as ever it was.
Adaptability, without compromising our non-negotiables, is a gift we have
been given but which we are often slow to exercise. I sense a new stirring
toward good, wise change. The best change comes from the grassroots up.We
must never forget to measure our methods ruthlessly against their
effectiveness in winning souls and building saints. Our social,
compassionate services need also to be constantly reviewed in the creative
light of the Spirit's illumination, so that we never find ourselves
offering answers to questions that no one is asking any more. Any tension
between the priestly and the prophetic must always be creative. It is not
"either / or", but "both/and".

JAC: What is the most significant part of your ministry today?

SC: Striving daily to be a spiritual leader in a manner that pleases God.
It is vital that I encourage my people (yes, I know they are first and
foremost God's people, but I unashamedly think of them as "mine", given to
me in high and sacred trust by God to shepherd and pastor in His Name).
Leadership involves also the setting of standards, the creating of a
climate in which others can excel for Christ and be stretched beyond what
they believed possible. I am always excited to see others discern that they
have gifts long undiscovered. I am grateful to God also for opportunities
to travel in ministry, to teach and preach for Him. I am called also to
minister to my family. Helen, my wife, and I pastor one another as we both
seek jointly to pastor our three children, scattered on three continents at
present! I feel also called to write for Christ. The USA National HQ have
generously published my last two books. I feel the stirrings of another -
something about "Pakistan - the Final Frontier", but that sounds too much
like an episode of "Star Trek"!!

JAC: What are your dreams for The Salvation Army?

SC: The response given above where I list my understanding of the
non-negotiables covers this. Because I am a radical, progressive
traditionalist my dream is of an Army rediscovering the richness of its
roots, its first purposes, its first bold obedience to the Spirit, its
passion for souls and for holiness while all the time staying crucially
relevant to the needs of the age, sensitively in touch with changing social
trends but never being seduced by them because we are in Christ who is the
same yesterday, today and forever.

JAC: What is God teaching you these days?

SC: 1. To trust Him in matters large and small. That He will win through
for me, for my family, for my Territory, for God's Army.
2. That I need Him more than He needs me.
3. That I have no answers, except those that are God's.

JAC: Can you tell us of any memorable preaching you have heard, and what
made it outstanding?

SC: I think of two starkly contrasting experiences:
a) I listened to the preaching of the Rev. Dr. Bernice King at the Congress
in Atlanta this summer. It was rooted in the Scriptures (the fourth
Gospel's account of the raising of Lazarus), it was articulate, passionate,
persuasive, powerful, professional in the very best sense. God was in it
and we heard His voice.
b) A few years ago we were on furlough and visiting a corps on the south
coast of England. The corps officers were away on leave and so one of the
local officers was taking the Sunday evening meeting. He was inexperienced
and hesitant, almost apologetic. His whole approach was amateurish. Yet his
words were simple and unpretentious. He spoke to us about the sacrifice of
Jesus at Calvary and our need of a Saviour. It came from his heart. As I
listened I knew that had I not been saved already I would have accepted
Christ as my Saviour that night.

JAC: How are you a different person and a different Salvationist from when
you were commissioned?

SC: God is more central in my life. My calling to be an officer in the
Army has been confirmed over and over again. I am more sure that I am in
His will. I am living out a marvellous adventure with God, for Christ, in
the power of the Spirit.

JAC: What is your most memorable spiritual experience?

SC: Impossible to answer! But I do find myself looking back upon (and
looking forward to) those quiet moments when, on leave with Helen, we can
sit in a lonely church sanctuary somewhere in the English countryside, or
kneel together at an Army Mercy Seat, renewing our vows to God as officers
and recommitting our futures to Him.